Episode 226 Transcript:

0:00:00 Ramona Shaw: Welcome to this week’s episode of the Manager track podcast. This week we’re going to talk about five reasons why a leader and manager might not hire you into a leadership role. Now, I’m talking about how I would go about it from my own point of view, but also I’m infusing all that by a lot of information that I have from leaders who are going through hiring processes, by employees who are hiring or I leaders who have applied for manager roles but didn’t get through.

0:00:30 Ramona Shaw: So I’m going to talk to you about what those hiccups are and the things that you need to pay attention to. And by the way, whether you are currently trying or in the future thinking about applying for and going through an interview rounds for a manager role, or whether you are actually curious how to detect good leaders for your team from both of these perspectives, you’re going to get a lot of insights from this episode, so stay tuned.

0:00:59 Ramona Shaw: Here’s the question.

0:01:00 Ramona Shaw: How do you successfully transition into your first official leadership role, build the confidence and competence to lead your team successfully, and establish yourself as a respected and trusted leader across the organization? That’s the question, and this show provides the answers. Welcome to the manager track podcast. I’m your host, Ramona Shaw. And I’m automation to create workplaces where work is not seen as a source of stress and dread, but as a source of contribution, connection, and fulfillment.

0:01:28 Ramona Shaw: And this transition starts with developing a new generation of leaders who know how to lead so everyone wins and grows. In the show, you learn how to think, communicate, and act as the confident and competent leader you know you can be.

0:01:47 Ramona Shaw: Okay, let’s dive in. Now, this specific topic perfectly aligns with a question that we received through our AMA form. And if you don’t know what the AMA form is, check out the link in the show notes, the AMA form is for you to ask us a question about your own leadership, your management style, or challenges that you have. Things that you want me to cover in the podcast. We either address them in our social media channels or will directly respond to the person who submitted it, or we infuse it into one of our podcasts.

0:02:23 Ramona Shaw: So this week’s question, just to get us started and warmed up, was, how do I interview for a manager position when I have no actual experience in it? And here’s my answer to that, because it’s a tricky one. Like most of the time, people want to hire someone who’s done the job I’m hiring for before. But there’s still many ways that you can position yourself well, assuming that you’re ready for that role, or at least well prepared to learn fast and get quickly up to speed.

0:02:56 Ramona Shaw: Okay, a few things that you can do. One is leading up to an interview or as you’re thinking about this, of interviewing for a leadership role. Start to track all your accomplishments, the things that you do, especially as it relates to work for your team and for the organization. How are you creating value for the business and for your team? Identify in the things that you do and beyond even the day to day things, not necessarily big accomplishments.

0:03:26 Ramona Shaw: How you lead informally and document that as well. Because one thing is for sure, that when you are interviewing for a leadership role and the hiring manager sees that you don’t have specific leadership or management experience, but they’ll want to give you a shot. They will ask how you lead informally and how you work with people and how you build relationships. So track all that. Volunteer for mentor or body opportunities to demonstrate that you’re interested in the people aspect.

0:03:59 Ramona Shaw: Participate in any other initiatives that involves groups outside of your direct team, across the department or the organization demonstrating initiative and that informal leadership and the ability to build relationships is really key. So write that all down then. How did you informally influence others? How did you informally lead? And then get a little bit more clear on what are the leadership values that matter to you and why?

0:04:31 Ramona Shaw: And what specifically do you do for people to recognize those values? So, for example, when you say one of my leadership values is to care or to be transparent, tell me how I would recognize your value of transparency or your value of care. Give me example where you’ve demonstrated that value. So you want to give something pretty concrete on how you have done that and demonstrate that in the past. Then get a little bit more creative as you think about this interview questions, what the questions that you will get in an interview are likely going to be about key leadership responsibilities in that role. Now, since I don’t know what you’re interviewing for and everyone here listening is in a different role, it depends on the specific responsibilities of your role.

0:05:27 Ramona Shaw: But write that down. What are the leadership responsibilities of the position you want to interview for, and how would you hypothetically handle those? How would you handle an underperformer? How would you manage conflict of interest? How would you manage a lot of people asking for a lot of things from your team and you having to prioritize and to manage those stakeholders? How do you work with people who are very ambitious and want to see when they can get promoted?

0:06:02 Ramona Shaw: How do you share difficult news? So think about all the scenarios that you would be in. Put yourself in those shoes and write down and don’t do this just thinking, because that’s not how you remember and that’s not going to be the best approach to it. So write it down how you would handle these scenarios based on your values, your principles, your experience, and be able to explain all that. And then two more things.

0:06:32 Ramona Shaw: One is I most definitely would look at ways to join a leadership development program. Once you are in that role, or as soon as you know that you got the job or work with a coach, or if you don’t have the resources for that, find peers or mentors who can support you. And sometimes people come to me and say, like, oh, I just got this job offer for this leadership role. So I’m thinking about joining your leadership accelerator program.

0:07:00 Ramona Shaw: And when I ask, does your company pay for that? They say, like, oh, no, my company doesn’t know about that, or I haven’t asked. Well, you could look at this as if I tell them that I’m going to get coaching, they may start to doubt my capacity of my competence. You could also look at it to demonstrate your self awareness and your eagerness to excel and succeed, so you wouldn’t bring this up during the interview process itself.

0:07:27 Ramona Shaw: But once you’re in the salary negotiation phase where someone already committed to you and they’re working out the salary, you could say, what is your l and D tuition budget? Or what kind of support do you provide for individuals to get training and coaching and professional development? And then dependent on what they say, they may already have something. There may be some specific number of dollars amounts that you get.

0:07:53 Ramona Shaw: You could then start negotiating, saying, listen, since this will be my first official leadership role and since I take this really seriously and I see it as a big responsibility, I’m committed to being successful, to putting my best foot forward. I would like to have an external support and be part of a leadership development program specifically for new managers so that when I’m here at work and working with the team, I’m setting in place strong habits and practices and demonstrating good, positive leadership from the start. And I have that external sounding board that will support me through this.

0:08:29 Ramona Shaw: You can make that an argument, a point in your negotiation, but regardless of what you do, do something that’s really important. And then the last one is to identify people that will be willing to bet on you to either give you a role with management or leadership function, or to write a really strong reference letter or just be a reference for you in the interview process and they will be able to talk about your ability to work well with others, to lead informally, and you make sure that that’s what they highlight. You have to let them know when you get a call or in your letter.

0:09:09 Ramona Shaw: Can you please emphasize my ability to do XYZ? Because I’m assuming their main concern might be that I haven’t led before, so be really intentional about that. These were a bunch of different ideas on how you personally can increase your success in when you’re interviewing for a leadership role and you don’t yet have any experience in it. I hope that was helpful. And again, for any other questions that you have, things that you want us to talk about on the podcast, check the link in the show notes to submit your questions in our AMA survey. Now on to the main topic of this podcast on why a hiring manager may not hire someone into a leadership role.

0:09:48 Ramona Shaw: What are the specific things you either as a leader, as you’re hiring managers, or even people that you’d like to promote into manager roles? Or if you think about your own career progression, what is it that you need to be on the lookout for across all of the following five topics or points that I’m going to talk about? The key thing is to be able to communicate those not just based on your understanding of something, but to demonstrate that you have applied it and you have reflected on it.

0:10:22 Ramona Shaw: So when we look at the hierarchy of critical thinking and understanding, also known as Bloom’s taxonomy, we move from gathering knowledge to understanding to application, to then evaluation and so forth. There’s a hierarchy in the quality and sophistication of our understanding. You want to make sure that you don’t just understand it, but that you can apply it and that you can evaluate it. Okay, so that is key, because that is what is expected of leaders, maybe less so of ics, individual contributors, but definitely of leaders.

0:10:55 Ramona Shaw: Let’s get into it. The first one is to misunderstand core principles. So when we rely too much on trendy topics or themes, it could be AI, it could be workplace flexibility, it could be psychological safety. And you use those terms that you’ve heard or read in a book on leadership or the specific business, and then you come in and you present those because you want to show knowledge, demonstrate that knowledge, but you don’t understand or can’t articulate how that fits into the business context or the role that you’re interviewing for.

0:11:35 Ramona Shaw: So what I am on the lookout for when I hire, when I used to go through interviews, is how are they able to show me what they know or talk about these topics, but then quickly translate it into the business context and the context of the work that we’re doing. So not being able to do that is the first challenge, the first issue for someone or reasons why I would have my doubts. The second one is to present common knowledge without being able to share personal experience.

0:12:09 Ramona Shaw: So, for example, if I say, how do you manage an underperformer? And the response would be, well, what I think is really important when managing underperformers is that you have very transparent communication as soon as possible so that there is a direct dialogue and an honest dialogue between the employee and the manager. Okay, great. So that candor, that candidness and transparency is really important to you.

0:12:35 Ramona Shaw: That’s good business knowledge or leadership knowledge. But now tell me how that relates to you, your team, or your experience. So, for example, you could say all that and then add on. For example, the way that I’ve handled this in the past with someone who was underperforming is dot, dot, dot. Or this is the reason why I believe in having monthly check in on our development plans and providing feedback at least weekly in our one on ones, including recognition, but also the record of things that they’re working on so they don’t ever hear the feedback in a performance review the first time.

0:13:13 Ramona Shaw: So I believe in the regular feedback, which I do in my one on ones personal experience. I also have monthly check in on their professional development plans and goals. I now personalized it. So are someone just regurgitating common knowledge, or are they able to share their personal experiences? So that’s the second issue, calling this the fallacy of common knowledge. The third one is lack of self awareness.

0:13:39 Ramona Shaw: If you’re not able to communicate to me directly or indirectly, that you understand your strength, you understand your weaknesses, and you also understand how your strength can actually get in the way of you being effective. I am going to have some orange flax. Maybe not quite red flags, but orange flax. The question is, it’s kind of a little bit of an overused question. Tell me your top three strengths, or tell me your top three weaknesses. Or if I asked your former peers, what would they say you’re good at? What do they say you’re not so good at?

0:14:16 Ramona Shaw: Those are questions that, yeah, I think they’re a little overused, but you cannot go into an interview not having good answers for those. That’s key. But beyond that, can you also be humble and really self aware on how that may show up and relate to others? Or are you just simply prepared to give an answer, trying to look as good as possible. Demonstrate in this response that you have a growth mindset, that you are always learning and that you understand that your strength can be too much and overdone, and then they can backfire.

0:14:53 Ramona Shaw: That is, we’re all at the effect of that, and I need to hear you say, like, relate to that in some kind of way. So, for example, to me, I have a tendency and a bias for action, which often helps me to. Strength of mine actually makes me do a lot more, I think, than I would if I didn’t have this bias. But the way this gets me into trouble or the way I have to manage this is that sometimes I go into action too fast.

0:15:21 Ramona Shaw: I don’t take enough time to really assess. Is this the right scope? Is this the right time? Are the right people involved? Do we have enough resources to really conduct this? What alternative approaches do we have? Is this goal that we’re going for? Could I achieve this goal with another strategy? Those kinds of deliberations, I sometimes I tend to skip. So I have to manage myself, to slow myself down and build into my routines, these regular check ins and these types of questions.

0:15:53 Ramona Shaw: So those are the things that I would be looking for in an interview from someone because self awareness is core to being able to lead people effectively. So that’s the third one. The fourth one goes a little bit into what we’ve said earlier about being able to talk about the business context, but four goes a little bit deeper. So, questions that are not necessarily related to common trends, but things that you may provide and share about what you think is important, or how you handle priorities or strategies.

0:16:30 Ramona Shaw: If all you’re telling me how you’ve done that in the past, but you’re not able to look at how this would show up in this current role, I’m going to probably walk away thinking that you’re not fully understanding or don’t have a clear enough picture yet, or you can’t articulate it. Maybe you do, but can’t articulate what this rule is going to entail. So someone who’s done their homework to me or who’s a ask those questions in previous interviews, or even in this particular interview that I’m having, they would be really keen to figure out what this is about.

0:17:06 Ramona Shaw: And so let me get really clear. If I say prioritization is really important and here’s how I’ve done that in the past, can you make the switch and say, given this role and the number of stakeholders that I can see or hear are involved in the different initiatives. And the manager for this role, hopefully me, will have to manage all these different stakeholders. One of the things that, based on the limited information I have so far, it seems to me that one of the things that will be really important would be to have regular sprints and determining with all stakeholders what the priorities are for the weeks or for the month, and then have the team execute, but having a really strong system in place to manage incoming requests.

0:17:53 Ramona Shaw: Ah, like at that moment when you say that, I can see how you learn how to prioritize and, you know, it matters, but you can also contextualize this with a specific role that you’re intrigued for. So that’s thumbs up. And if you never do this again and you’re not asking questions about it, it would be a bit of an orange flag. If you don’t know, you could say, like, here’s how I’ve done it. Would you mind sharing a little bit of what kind of prioritization you would be looking for in that role or where you see the biggest challenges with prioritization in the role, that will help me have a better understanding of the position and what expectations you might have on the leader.

0:18:35 Ramona Shaw: Okay, so that was number four. Number five is to be too focused on the title or the team size and not being focused enough on the title or the size of the team or the career progression and not spending enough time and demonstrating to me that, you know, that no matter how good you are, you’re not going to be as good as you possibly can in all situations that, you know, just like dating. Just because you’re a good human doesn’t mean you’re going to be a good match with every other good human.

0:19:07 Ramona Shaw: No, we need to figure out in which type of relationships are we actually going to thrive. What are we actually looking for in a relationship? Are they a match for that? And the same thing is in the interior process where I would want to see, especially from a leader, a more senior leader. Are they asking questions that helps them evaluate if this is the right opportunity for them? Is their experience and their style and what they’re looking for, their goals? Is that aligned with what the position has to offer?

0:19:40 Ramona Shaw: And so sometimes a bit challenging questions are asking specifically, where do you see the connect between what you’re looking for and my profile? Or here is a concern that I have in terms of where my expertise may in an interview, I would want to be able to identify that someone is reflecting on it and thinking through this so that they will accept offers only from companies where they know they’re going to thrive, and if they do, because they need a job as a leader, you just have such a big impact and a ripple effect across the organization.

0:20:14 Ramona Shaw: So those were the five different topics. Misunderstanding core principles was one, the fallacy of common knowledge. Number two, the lack of self awareness. Number three, not providing answers that are contextualized with the company and then focusing too much on team size or title and nothing, checking whether this is truly a match and whether they would be able to thrive in this role. Those are five things that give me some orange flags in an interview process and that I know other people are too. Now, I hope this is really helpful. If you know someone else, a friend, a colleague, co worker who would appreciate hearing this too, please pass it along and share it with them.

0:20:57 Ramona Shaw: And if you liked it and found it insightful, I so appreciate it. If you can give it a five star review and whatever podcast platform you’re listening to it, that means a lot because that means that would increase the reach that we have and we can provide this information to more people in roles just like you. Thank you so much and we’ll be back next week with another episode of the Manager track podcast. Bye for now.

0:21:19 Ramona Shaw: If you enjoyed this episode, then check.

0:21:21 Ramona Shaw: Out two other awesome resources to help.

0:21:23 Ramona Shaw: You become a leader people love to work with.0:21:26 Ramona Shaw: This includes my best selling book, a confident and competent new manager, which you can find on Amazon or@ramonashaw.com book, and a free training on how to successfully lead as a new manager. You can check it out@ramonashaw.com themasterclass these resources and a couple more you’ll find in the show notes down below.