Episode 234 Transcript:

0:00:00 Ramona Shaw: Welcome to The Manager Track podcast. Today, I am thrilled to introduce another guest to you. His name is Charles Feldman. Charles is a highly respected leadership coach with over 25 years of experience coaching executives and leadership teams, as well as designing custom leadership development programs for organizations. And his expertise really centers around one crucial topic, and that is trust.

0:00:23 Ramona Shaw: Charles is the author of the Thin Book of an essential Primer for Building Trust at Work, which provides a powerful framework for building, maintaining, and restoring trust in professional settings. This is more important than ever, especially given that a recent PwC survey shows that while 86% of executives say they trust their employees, only 60% of employees feel highly trusted. And 94% of executives say they face at least one challenge when building trust with stakeholders and vital essence means we all need to learn how to build and establish trust with others.

0:01:02 Ramona Shaw: So with that, I’m excited to have Charles with us to dive into the complex and essential topics of trust, how to cultivate it, and why it’s the foundation for both leadership success and organizational performance. Here are the two questions this podcast answers. One, how do you successfully transition into your first official leadership role? And two, how do you keep climbing that leadership ladder and continuously get promoted? Although the competition and the expectations get bigger, this show, The Manager Track podcast, will provide the answers.

0:01:33 Ramona Shaw: I’m your host, Ramona Shaw. I’m on a mission to create workplaces where work is seen as a source of contribution, connection, and personal fulfillment. And this transition starts with developing a new generation of leaders who know how to lead so everyone wins and grows. In the show, you’ll learn how to think, communicate, and act as a confident and competent leader. You know you can be. Charles, welcome to The Manager Track podcast.

0:01:58 Ramona Shaw: I’m really happy to have you here and talk about this very important, crucial topic of trust and specifically trust in the workplace.

0:02:06 Charles Feltman: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to having this conversation with you.

0:02:10 Ramona Shaw: So, speaking of trust, what inspired you to write the book, the thin book of trust? And I love the name, by the way.

0:02:17 Charles Feltman: Well, I know it truly, when its first edition, it was truly thin, like 68 pages long. It’s gotten a little bit thicker in the last two editions, but yeah, originally I had about an eight page sort of white paper on my website that people could download that just very basically outlined this framework and definition I use for trust. And some of the distinctions I use when I work with clients around trust building.

0:02:48 Charles Feltman: And a woman who a husband and wife publishing company called thin book publishing, which published thin books for the business market, called me one day and said, hey, you know, I read this little white paper on, and it would make a really good thin book for our market. And would you be interested in writing or expanding it a little bit? And that was, I thought, this is fantastic, because I had thought occasionally about writing a book about this, because I, you know, my clients had all found it very useful.

0:03:22 Charles Feltman: So this was an opportunity then to really do that. And it took a while because mostly they wanted me to write a thin book, and I kept pushing it into the thick book category. It’s harder to write less than it is more I’ve discovered for me.

0:03:39 Ramona Shaw: Right. So the compromise was just to add more editions down the road, right?

0:03:44 Charles Feltman: Exactly. Add more to the second edition and the third edition. I need even more.

0:03:48 Ramona Shaw: So I assume that you wrote the initial white paper because you saw a need in the market. And with the work that you were doing for people to better understand how trust is being built. Can you talk to us a little bit about the framework that you use with those four aspects of trust? And then I’d be also be curious to learn which one of those is typically the most challenging in your experience.

0:04:13 Charles Feltman: Yeah. So the four what I call assessment domains of trust, because we’re making assessments about someone else’s trust worthiness, and they’re making assessments about our own trustworthiness in each of these four domains. So the four domains of trust that I work with are care, which is to say, I trust that you have my interests in mind as well as your own. When you make decisions and take action, you intend good for me.

0:04:45 Charles Feltman: You have my well being in mind. So that is a fundamental kind of trust that I think is the foundation really, to be honest. I think is the foundation for psychological safety. It’s that sense that, yeah, this person actually does have my best interests in mind. That’s the domain of care. Trust in the domain of sincerity is about believing that I can believe you, that you’re going to be honest with me. What you tell me is the truth. As far as you can figure it out.

0:05:24 Charles Feltman: You’ve done your homework, you’ve checked it out. You’re not just talking off the top of your head, and you’re certainly not trying to mislead me. Plus, also, in the sincerity, the domain of sincerity, I also include integrity. That is, you walk your talk. So I trust that you walk your talk that if you tell me something, you’ll follow it up with behaviors that align with what you told me, or if you tell me something one day I’m not gonna hear two weeks from now that you told somebody else something different.

0:06:00 Charles Feltman: So that sort of sense of honesty and integrity is in the domain of trust domain I call sincerity. The third one is reliability, which is to say you keep the specific commitments you make. So if I tell you, well, I mean, it’s a good example. You know, I committed to showing up at 11:00 on this Zoom channel so that we could have this conversation and I kept my commitment here. Here I am and I’m prepared to have the conversation.

0:06:31 Charles Feltman: If I hadn’t shown up, you would pretty quickly start judging me as, as unreliable. So reliability has to do with keeping specific commitments that we make, and there’s a lot to do with doing that. Well, and there’s, it’s not just, okay, I’ll keep my commitments because sometimes we tend to over commit, which can cause all kinds of problems for us and other people. And sometimes we make a commitment and then something out of our control prevents us from keeping that commitment. So part of reliability is coming back to the person you made the commitment to in the first place and letting them know that as soon as possible so that you and that other person can negotiate some different way to way forward. The last one is competence.

0:07:25 Charles Feltman: So that means that I trust that you have the skill, the expertise, the experience, the knowledge, the resources, maybe to do what you’re proposing or saying you can do or what I’m asking you to do. So building trust in that domain is generally demonstrating that competence. However, sometimes we don’t, you know, like, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know anything about that, or I know too little about that to really do it well.

0:07:56 Charles Feltman: So that’s also building trust in the domain of competence can mean acknowledging when we don’t know and asking for help. So those are the four assessment domains. Care, which has to do with having my interests in mind as well as your own. Sincerity is about honesty and integrity. Walking one’s talk. Reliability is about keeping specific commitments that we make, and competence is about being able to do what we’re saying we can do.

0:08:28 Ramona Shaw: Now I’m curious. Some of these things that you just laid out that build trust are sometimes hard to implement in the day to day, like when we have tons of stuff coming our way and it can be hard to keep track of what we’re saying or what we’re doing. And then, so just like the domain or the scale of how hard is it to implement and to gain that trust through this domain, and then the other part is how hurtful is it if I don’t do it like, or if I’m not living up to that specific domain, can you talk a little bit about what that is? And then I’m going back to that question, too. Like, what are the biggest challenges as it relates to those four domains for the people you work with?

0:09:11 Charles Feltman: So the domain of care is somewhat difficult because people don’t really know, well, how do I do that? A lot of people don’t. How do I do that? What are the things, the actions I can take, the behaviors that I can enact that signal to someone else that I do have their interests in mind. But when you think about it for a minute, you probably can figure out some of the obvious ones, like listening, you know, listening to people, remembering the conversation that we had yesterday or a week ago, which says, you know, yeah, I listen to you. I do listen to you asking questions, asking people about what their interests are.

0:09:52 Charles Feltman: What is it that, that you’re excited about? What is it that you care about and are concerned about? What is it that you’re, do you have fears and what are they? So having those kinds of conversations with people, whether they’re your employees or in some cases your boss and certainly your peers, signals to them that you’re interested in them, that you care about them, that you want to support them.

0:10:19 Charles Feltman: And then, of course, obviously also offering, you know, offering to help when it’s, when you are able to do so, not giving people advice unless they ask for it, that’s a way to not show care in some cases. So that’s one, that one is kind of hard for people to get their head around at first, but once they get it, they get it. Sincerity is also pretty straightforward, but it can be easy to get tripped up.

0:10:47 Charles Feltman: So I can, for example, say to one of my direct reports, who’s on my team, I can say, hey, you know, this is the direction we’re going, and I’d like you to go and, you know, do what you’re supposed to be doing, what you need to do in this, take things forward in this direction. So you go off and you spend a lot of time doing that. In the meantime, I have a conversation with someone else, and I change my mind and I change directions.

0:11:13 Charles Feltman: And so I find myself selling another one of my team members. Hey, you know, actually, this is the direction we’re going to go. And then you have a conversation with that other team member and hear that, wait a minute, what’s going on? So you’re scratching your head going, is my boss lying to me? Washington, you know, what’s going on here, are they not unclear? So, in all of these, it takes paying attention to what we’re doing beyond just, okay, just doing what we do, but paying attention, being careful about what we do, what we say, and catching it up. So I would come back to you. If I was really concerned about keeping your trust, I’d come back to you as soon as I changed my mind, I’d come back and say, ramona, I’ve changed my mind about this. I know I sent you off to do some work. I apologize, but I think this is a better path. This is why I changed my mind.

0:12:14 Charles Feltman: And here we go in this direction. So it’s all things.

0:12:19 Ramona Shaw: Yeah, yeah. As you say that, I recall so many moments where I was in that position where someone else has changed their mind and I wasn’t aware. And there is definitely the initial instinct of, like, all of our brains. Right. Worst case scenario. And we’re usually at the center of that. Worst case scenario of, oh, they did not care about me or they were lying to me or something. But then there’s, like, the trust that erodes in that relationship. And then, oddly, there’s also this second thought of, like, now I look bad in front of my peer or in front of this other person because they were more up to date than I was, which is sort of like a secondary impact that now I’m dealing with the repercussion that I have because of something you or that is my boss did.

0:13:08 Charles Feltman: Yeah, exactly. So, like all of these domains of trust, it really comes down to paying attention to understanding what the behaviors are that tend to build trust in that domain and what behaviors tend to damage it, and just being careful, being observant, being aware of what we’re saying and doing. So I will. Now you ask, what’s the most tricky domain, the difficult one, even though it seems obvious, often the domain that people struggle with, a lot of teams that I work with, I start here, is the domain of reliability, people like you said, we’re moving 90 miles an hour.

0:13:58 Charles Feltman: We’re moving so fast that we just automatically say yes to commitments. If we thought about it for a minute, we don’t have time. We don’t have the resources. We can’t really fulfill on, but we just say, yes, okay, I’ll do it. And then later on, we have to go back and deal with the fact that we can’t or haven’t fulfilled that commitment. And this is rampant in teams, in whole organizations, people making commitments that they really can’t keep, and then they have an accountability issue. How do you hold people accountable for that? Because everybody’s doing it.

0:14:37 Charles Feltman: So it becomes really challenging for the team leader especially. How do I deal with this? There is a whole, how would I describe it? I guess a language and kind of process for making clear and complete requests that then people can commit to or not because they really understand what it is you’re asking for. And that’s kind of key in being able to be reliable in the workplace. In today’s fast paced, fast moving workplace, one of the things that I caution people to avoid that’s so easy to do is what I call a drive by request, where I stick my head in your office and I say, hey, Ramona, can you do such and such? Great, thanks. And I move on, not even waiting for you to go, hmm, I don’t know if I can, or.

0:15:38 Charles Feltman: I’ve got ten other things. Help me organize this other, you know, to prioritize these other things. Or I send you an email and I make the request in the email, and I assume just because I’ve sent you that email, of course you’re going to do it. And then we get.

0:15:55 Ramona Shaw: Those are also. Yeah, those emails are also what you consider drive by request, because I think that happens all the time. So can you walk us through what would be a better way to do good as part of your framework?

0:16:07 Charles Feltman: Well, the first thing is whatever, whenever you make a request, wait for the other person to acknowledge it and respond, you know, give them the chance to think about it and respond, even maybe challenging them a little bit. So, you know, you. I hear an almost automatic sounding yes. So, Ramona, think about this, because this is what I’m asking you here, and there’s a lot in this request. Can you really do all of that, considering everything else you’re doing allows you to stop and go, wait a minute, maybe I need to. Maybe I can do all of it, but I need more time than you’re asking me for. So we can talk about that then.

0:16:52 Charles Feltman: Is there any leeway in terms of timing, or is there any opportunity to take some of this stuff and give it to somebody else or whatever it is, so we can have a little negotiation and get to the point where the commitment that you ultimately make, you are really clear that you can fulfill that commitment.

0:17:15 Ramona Shaw: Interesting. So I’m going to try to make this really practical. And I do this, too. If I send someone on my team a request and I say, can you update this spreadsheet by Friday? And I may say, could you please update this by Friday? I always try to have some kind of like deadline or let them know, is this urgent? Is this not urgent? What goes into it? But because we’re working all, virtually, a lot of it does happen over email or some kind of like written channel.

0:17:42 Ramona Shaw: Then what you’re suggesting is make sure that they give you a confirmation or that I do ask, if not, let me know what would need to shift or by when you could make it or what would be the best practice here.

0:17:57 Charles Feltman: That’s exactly right. That was so ideally, everyone on the team understands what a clear and complete request is. And if they get a request that’s missing something, that they can ask for it. And also that there are four basically useful responses. Yes, I’ll do exactly what you’re asking me. No, I can’t do it, any of it. You need to go find somebody else so I can make a counteroffer like you just suggested. Can I do this?

0:18:33 Charles Feltman: Have an extra day to do this or whatever it might be, which then leads to negotiation, which hopefully leads to a clear yes around something that I really can do. And then there’s also a good way to buy time, which is, hey, I can’t tell you, I need to talk to a couple other people that I’m going to need to get information from and make sure that they can come through within this timeframe and all of that. I’ll get back to you by 04:00 this afternoon and let you know. So in your letter, or, I’m sorry, email example, saying exactly what you said, if you don’t think you can make it, let’s talk about what needs to be changed so that you can do this.

0:19:15 Charles Feltman: That’s a perfect way to phrase an email, giving the other person the opportunity to come back and make a counter offer.

0:19:24 Ramona Shaw: Nice. You mentioned the complete request. What goes into a complete request? So obviously it’s the request in itself. I assume it’s a timeline. True?

0:19:36 Charles Feltman: Yeah.

0:19:36 Ramona Shaw: What else?

0:19:37 Charles Feltman: The complete request. Well, so who is making the request? Is it me or am I making it on behalf of someone else? Okay, because you, as the performer who’s going to do whatever I’m asking, ultimately may need clarification and you may need to know who to go to for that clarification. So who’s making the request? Usually it’s me, but might be someone else. Who is the request for? Is it for you or am I actually asking you to go ask somebody else to do something?

0:20:09 Charles Feltman: But the other really key part is what I call conditions of satisfaction. That is what’s going to satisfy you that what I’ve done works. And here we get into. You’d mentioned people who don’t trust their team members. They don’t want. They don’t trust them to well enough to delegate certain things to them.

0:20:32 Ramona Shaw: I wanted to get into that.

0:20:34 Charles Feltman: Yeah. So what, you know, what don’t they trust? What specific is it competence? Is that person’s competence? Is it their reliability? What is it they don’t trust? But if I’m making a request of you and I give you clear conditions of satisfaction, I want this spreadsheet filled out in this way. And this is sort of the bottom line of the spreadsheet. And I want that to be really clear. And I want these aspects or these, whatever these line items to be separated, not just all clumped together, whatever it is you’re asking for, but making sure that the other person understands very specifically what you expect to see that will satisfy you, that the job has been done correctly, which so often is not done in requests.

0:21:36 Charles Feltman: There’s an assumption that you should know that, and maybe you do, because we’ve done this 2310 times, we do it once a month, whatever it is. So there’s no, you know, I don’t need to explain all that, but if it’s something new or different, then yes, it’s incumbent on me, the requester, to be very clear about what my expectations are. And if I’m nothing, then I have no complaint about what the person delivers.

0:22:10 Ramona Shaw: Right. This is interesting. Let’s hone in on this a little bit more, because I did say to you, I’d love to talk about this specific topic because it’s come up a number of times with clients recently when we have this sense my team is great, but I do notice how I am still nothing, fully trusting them to do the job. And I know that if I had to do it, I would trust myself a lot more. Or if I put those on the scale, I trust myself way more, noticeably more than I trust my team.

0:22:44 Ramona Shaw: And then as a result of that, I just don’t feel like I can delegate the work. So I’m going to do it myself. And it’s really difficult to shift that behavior because everything that I delegate just seems like I’m going to set them up for failure, going to set myself up for failure, and who wants to do that? So what is if that was, you know, if someone came to you as a coaching client, said, this is my challenge as an expert in trust, what do you recommend beyond what you just shared? Yeah.

0:23:16 Charles Feltman: Yes. Yes. Well, lots of clients have come to me with this concern, I’m overworked. I can’t, I can’t get all this stuff done. I’m doing. I’m doing the work of my direct reports. What do I do? So first of all, I’d ask, what is it that you’re, you know, why are you concerned that this person can’t do it? What evidence do you have that they can’t do it? Okay. Well, yeah. The last time they put together a slide deck to present to the executive team, it was way more information than the executive team wants. I can’t, I can’t trust the person to put together an executive level summary in a slide deck.

0:23:59 Charles Feltman: Oh, okay. And have you sat down with them and walked them through this? Well, yeah, I do. I mean, I tell them what they need to do. Oh, let’s tell me. Tell me exactly what you tell them. And then I help them listen to themselves. And quite often, not always, but quite often, it turns out that they shortcut what it is because it’s in their head. You know, they know exactly what. And so they shortcut, and they don’t really get clear in helping their direct report understand what an executive level summary really looks and sounds like. And so they end up doing it themselves.

0:24:41 Charles Feltman: And instead of taking that extra time, which it is, it’s going to take extra time. There’s no doubt about it. It’s going to take some time to bring that person along to the point where they can do what you want them to do. So it’s what, how do you want this to work ultimately? Right. Do you want to be. The cost of continuing to do what you’re doing now sounds pretty high. Yes. The cost of taking some time up front to bring this person along and really help them understand what it is you need them to do.

0:25:18 Charles Feltman: Yeah, it’s there, but ultimately you’ll end up with someone who can do the work, you can trust to do the work. So, you know, let them make that decision for themselves. And if they want to do it that way, then help them figure out how to do that, what they need to be able to, in what ways, specifically, they can support their direct report in kind of bridging that gap from, I need to give them every last little detail in 20 slides to, oh, here’s the executive overview that they need.

0:25:56 Ramona Shaw: Okay. Good to hear in the way that we’re very much on the same page with this. I always do call out the cost factor. Like, you have a cost right now and you’re going to have a cost doing it. Differently. What we’re trying to do is to have a lower cost and reduce and minimize the cost you’re going to pay internally for yourself as you learn how to delegate and as your team learns how to take on more and get better at it. In terms of their competence, what do we do? If it’s a reliability issue, that’s a good question.

0:26:27 Charles Feltman: So reliability. A conversation around reliability. So starting that conversation with something like the last three times that you said you were going to, you know, you would do something, you didn’t get it to me on time, or you didn’t. What you got to me was not what I asked for. Can we talk about that? What’s going on? Tell me a little bit about what, you know, what’s going on for you. I’ll tell you that what’s going on, you know, what you did or didn’t do is not working for me. So we need to, you know, we need to fix this, but let’s talk about how to do that.

0:27:05 Charles Feltman: So listening to what’s going on for the other person, it may well be that the other person is getting so. Has so many tasks on their plate that they can’t get it all done. So we can talk about that. How does that. I can help them as if I’m their boss. I can help them prioritize. If I’m their peer, I can help them think about how they might prioritize. So there’s, you know, that, but it’s a conversation. It’s got to come down to a conversation where I’m clear about what I need, but I also listen to you and understand and be open to what’s going on for you and see if I can’t do what I can to help you so that you can keep the commitments that you’ve made.

0:27:51 Ramona Shaw: This speaks a little bit to the lack or the loss of trust. So when we inadvertently do things that we can’t follow through on or we might change our minds along the way, we start to have some erosion on the sincerity front, or we may actually do something that then turns into a failure and people start to question our competence. When these things happen and we become aware of it, how do we establish, how do we prevent the erosion of trust, if possible, or then how do we regain the trust in the relationship?

0:28:32 Charles Feltman: Well, if it’s something that I’ve done that I didn’t turn out the way that I expected or wanted it to, or worse yet, other people expected and wanted it to, I need to own that. Okay, so this didn’t work. I failed, and I want to understand how I failed. I think I’ve got my own ideas, but I’d also like to hear from you what’s. Can you give me some feedback here? So really owning it and signaling to the other person or people that I want to learn that I’m.

0:29:09 Charles Feltman: It’s not just I want to avoid it or avoid talking about it or shove it off on somebody else, blame someone or something else, but I really. That I own it and that I want to learn from it, learn from my mistakes. So that’s. I think the fundamental piece is just that.

0:29:32 Ramona Shaw: Okay, so the transparency and the sense of. There’s a bit of vulnerability that I’m hearing there, too, to say, this is what happened. I’m learning from it. I own it.

0:29:42 Charles Feltman: Yeah. Yeah. Being vulnerable is hard for people in the workplace. We’re not comfortable with it. And yet trust is built around vulnerability. It’s when we. When I trust you, I am making myself and what I value vulnerable to you and to your actions and vice versa. So there’s. Building trust requires a certain amount of vulnerability just on the face of it. And then underneath that, the actions, the actions we take to build it may in fact require that we be vulnerable as well.

0:30:22 Ramona Shaw: Okay, what is something, as we’re wrapping up the conversation, and I know that there’s so many more aspects of trust that we haven’t talked about yet, but I’d be curious to hear from you, what do you think is a key thing that you want to make sure that the audience really understands about the topic of trust that we haven’t yet talked about?

0:30:43 Charles Feltman: I would say that trust building, that is the ability to build trust with other people and broadly, not just the people that I connect with and click with, but building trust with a broad range of people easily, and maintaining that trust over time is a competency. It’s something that, well, that we have learned to the extent that we’ve learned it so far, but that we can learn to do it better, we can get really good at it, and we can become exceptional trust builders who can build trust broadly, and also who can create environments in which other people can build trust with each other more easily.

0:31:34 Charles Feltman: So creating a team culture of trust, or a department wide culture of trust, all of that is a competency. And we can learn it. We have to choose to do so, and we can.

0:31:50 Ramona Shaw: So you’re talking about it being a competency. And I really want to emphasize this because I think sometimes trust is an elusive, is sort of seen as something elusive, and we associate it with just having good relationships. But there are specific practices that leaders can initiate and create a space and time for exercises and conversations to have in order to accelerate the building of trust or strengthening trust in a relationship.

0:32:18 Ramona Shaw: Just for us to contemplate on one of those, what is one of your favorite exercises that a team can do as they may be performing and want to really invest in trust building?

0:32:31 Charles Feltman: So one of the things that I would suggest is taking the four assessment domains of trust and asking each person on a team to take a. I used to have them here. I used to have a couple of, like, a red dot and a green dot, for example. And put a green dot in the domain that you think you do pretty well in, that you are fairly trustworthy in, and a red dot in the domain that maybe you could use some, you know, some developing in that area.

0:33:06 Charles Feltman: And then to extend it further, you can ask people to use two different color dots, maybe blue and yellow, and put a blue dot on where you think the whole team does pretty well, and the yellow dot on where the whole team, you know, could really use some work, and then step back as a team, as a group of people and look at that and dive into it. Okay. Looks like for me, I need to work on this, and I can see that you need to work on this. How can I support you in doing that? Here’s how you can support me.

0:33:39 Charles Feltman: And then as a whole team, these are the areas that we do well. Let’s, you know, good. Good on us. And these are the areas that we can work on developing. Let’s have some conversations about. We can do that.

0:33:53 Ramona Shaw: And I bet a ton of insights comes out of this as we open up that conversation in a. In a. Like, we call this a safe space, but. Right. We’re making it a topic so everyone gets the mandate to openly talk about what they notice versus just hoping that people will bring it up in between work items and one on ones.

0:34:10 Charles Feltman: Right.

0:34:11 Ramona Shaw: Which usually doesn’t happen.

0:34:14 Charles Feltman: Right. Especially in a virtual kind of team world where people are, you know, not actually face to face with each other, makes it even more challenging and such.

0:34:26 Ramona Shaw: Exercise even more important. Yeah.

0:34:28 Charles Feltman: Yes, exactly.

0:34:30 Ramona Shaw: Charles, thank you so much for being on the miniature track podcast and sharing your wisdom. I love that you have the book there in the back so everyone knows what that looks like. If you’re listening to us, check the show notes where we will link to Charles book, the Thin Book of Trust, so you can grab a copy. Charles, again, I appreciate you and the work that you do in the sense that we, there’s so much more that we need to do to establish organizations where trust is seen as high, both from leaders to employees and employees to leaders.

0:35:05 Charles Feltman: Well, thank you. I really appreciate your questions. They’re good, challenging questions, so I love that. Thank you so much.

0:35:11 Ramona Shaw: _Thank you, Charles. If you enjoyed this episode, then check out two other awesome resources to help you become a leader people love to work with. This includes a free masterclass on how to successfully lead as a new manager. Check it out @archova.org/masterclass the second resource is my best selling book, the confident and competent new how to quickly rise to success in your first leadership role. Check it out @archova.org/_

0:35:39 Ramona Shaw: books or head on over to Amazon and grab your copy there. You can find all those links in the.